Technology, Labor Rights, and Political Power in Kenya and Across Africa

Audio of this conversation is available via your favorite podcast service.

If you want to understand how technology is interacting with democracy and politics and with conceptions of the future, you have to pay attention to Africa, and in particular to Kenya, where a variety of issues and questions are at play.

For this episode, I spoke with Nerima Wako-Ojiwa, director of Siasa Place, and Odanga Madung, a tech and society researcher and journalist, about the intersection of technology, labor rights, and political power in Kenya and across Africa. The conversation explores the ongoing struggles of content moderators and AI data annotators, who face exploitative working conditions while performing essential labor for major tech companies; the failure of platforms fail to address harmful biases and disinformation that particularly affect African contexts; the ways in which governments increasingly use platform failures as justification for internet censorship and surveillance; and the promise of youth and labor movements that point to a more just and democratic future.

What follows is a lightly edited transcript of the discussion.

Justin Hendrix:

We have quite an agenda to get through today. We're going to talk about a range of things to do with technology, politics, current circumstances in Kenya and in Africa perhaps more broadly. Grateful to two of you for joining us. Just by way, background for my listeners. Nerima, perhaps I'll start with you. Can you just give them the basic skinny on Siasa Place, what you get up to, what's in your portfolio?

Nerima Wako-Ojiwa:

We're pretty much a non-governmental organization. We work with a lot of young people, young women between the age of 18 and 35. And so, we've been working with a lot of content moderators, digital annotators, and even app workers in e-hailing industry. So, people who work with Uber, with Bolt, in terms of knowing their rights when it comes to work, the frameworks in the country. Because again, a lot of them do tend to be young, that are working on these platforms, just because Kenya is 68% unemployed and then the average age is 19, so a lot of them are looking digital when it comes to opportunity.

Justin Hendrix:

And Odanga, you've covered many things in your career as a journalist and a researcher. How do you think of your portfolio at the moment?

Odanga Madung:

Previously, I was covering how the internet was changing the world. But I think now I'm more interested in understanding how particularly the internet is intersecting with politics and trying to understand how that is changing the nature of how people think about who they choose to be their leaders, how it helps them develop political thoughts. And yeah, I've covered mis and disinformation in particular for a very long time, looking across various aspects of it and seeking how to hold tech platforms accountable for much of their actions.

Justin Hendrix:

Let's start there, because both of you have worked on platform accountability issues for a range of different perspectives, both on the labor front and content moderation, which Nerima just mentioned, but also of course on other concerns around disinformation, politics, elections. Nerima, I want to start with you. Can you catch us up on what is happening right now with regard to the movement among content moderators, to try to establish more rights to try to defend themselves? We've certainly seen many headlines off the continent, out of Kenya in particular, around legal cases that are ongoing, around content moderators suing both outsourced firms and American tech firms. What's the current state of play?

Nerima Wako-Ojiwa:

There's so much going on. There's been a lot of movement, a lot of activity. First, there's our national union, one of the largest unions, COTU, which the sister union is called COWU, and they have a branch that focuses on content moderators, digital workers. There's also been an association that has been formed for data notators, that have formed it DLA. There's also been other unions that are still in the formation, such as KUGWO. And so that's been an exciting space to see all these new faces and also organizing. But there's also been the formation of a movement, the Africa Tech Workers Movement, that's a combination of all sectors just basically coming together because they recognize that, our employment act for instance, doesn't recognize their kind of work, they have no protections when it comes to social welfare. And just educating not just the public, but also legislators, in terms of why it's important to amend our employment act for instance.

And it's something that has existed for more than 20 years. And so, you're seeing there's a lot of awareness that's occurring and them organizing themselves and then reaching out to other workers on the continent, because as we know, some of these jobs tend to be invisible. And trying to get to know where a lot of these companies are based and who's working there and just an understanding on what happened in Kenya, in regards to even the cases currently. It's still happening in other parts of the continent, but I think what's fascinating is, there's also a national BPO policy currently going through public participation. So, you can see government trying to understand the sector, align itself. It still appears to lean toward business, not really on workers and the right of workers. So, they do have a lot of work to do.

And of course there are several partners that are supporting behind the scenes, especially the workers organizing. So, it's the workers themselves that are at the forefront and it's been fast and about their different sectors. Also, for them to be in the same space at the same time, has been enriching and even with their platform spreading information. But you have the likes of Oversight Lab, ourselves, Siasa Place, and even associations and unions just trying to come together and that's why they decided to call themselves a movement. It's just people pushing for better working environments, fair treatment, fair pay.

Justin Hendrix:

And you're finding some traction in the courts?

Nerima Wako-Ojiwa:

Yes. Our courts here, the systems are very slow. It's been really frustrating, that we are still talking about the cases. It's been quite a drag, over two years still. Even though there have been magnificent wins, we're still seeing a drag. And it's very difficult because a lot of workers have been blacklisted and many of them are struggling to find work. Some of them have had to return to these abusive companies, because there is no opportunities around for them or these are skills that they have built and they can only use them in companies like this. So, they're still working outside frameworks.

So, even though there have been wins in the courts, it's still ongoing and we don't know for how long. And there's even rumors of new cases coming up with other platforms and they're just getting more and getting clogged up in this judicial system. And we all know how tech is so fast. So, by the time some of these cases are closing, we're already talking about, will content moderation exist as they're continuing to minimize human centered approaches when it comes to looking at content moderation. So, those are some of the things that workers are concerned about. Courts need to catch up and realize just how fast and dynamic the sector is and respond and create frameworks and regulations around it fast enough to protect workers.

Justin Hendrix:

Odanga, perhaps I'll pick up on that point and ask you about what you're observing. One of the things that seems clear is that, the discussion has been largely about content moderation on social media platforms. Of course, in the last couple of years, we've seen many of those same outsourced firms begin to focus on annotating datasets for large language models and working with American firms that are trying to make sure that their generative AI products are safe. We're not spitting out horrendous material. You've looked at that from a range of different perspectives. But in this transition, as AI becomes the focus, what are you observing?

Odanga Madung:

The first thing I'm observing is that, there's still a very long way to go and that we are still, especially in terms of AI safety, I don't think there's been much progress that has been made. I remember I just had an exchange with a friend of mine recently, who's in Germany and he just typed into an AI and specifically ChatGPT and Grok and asked it to show pictures of children in Nairobi versus pictures of children in Berlin. And what was very interesting was the kind of difference in the type of image that was there.

Most tellingly, of course, the African children, the kids that were in Nairobi, were in tattered clothes and did not have shoes, and the ones that were in Berlin looked all very polished and very happy. So I think, for me, it's that when you look at it at such a basic level, the road in terms of eliminating the kind of harmful bias that AI is likely to regenerate across the internet, especially for countries, I'm sorry to use this term, but for countries in the global south, that road is still a very long way to go. I think that's something that's very clear.

And then secondly, I think, one thing that's become very concerning, even in terms of the encoding of biases, is when you look at the rise of adversarial AI, right? When you look at specifically the actions of Grok in recent times, particularly towards the facts around the situation in South Africa, number one. And then number two, I think, specifically in terms of the usage of Grok in gender disinformation, where a lot of people are, and other AI's in terms of gender disinformation, where people are, number one, using it to feminize politicians that they don't like. And number two, using it to undress popular public figures who most of the time are women.

I think that is something that is very clear to me, in terms of even the political usage of the tools, that I think we need to really pay attention to. Because if a lot of these platforms do not clean up their act, especially in terms of cleaning up their data sets in whatever way they can, what they don't realize is that the effects of the usage, the harmful usage of these tools, is likely what is going to guide, top of mind, how politicians think about AI. And then as a result, how politicians go ahead and end up regulating AI.

There's still such a long road ahead and currently right now one of my research focuses is trying to understand the human story of AI. What is likely to happen when people in a country like Kenya interact with these systems and how different is that from how people in the US, for example, are likely to interact with these systems? Because, Justin, to be honest, 90% of these tools are made by people who look like you and they're built for people with civic context like yours. The data sets that they upload in to train these AIs, do not consider our context as well. And so, the clash that is happening there, is a story that needs to be told, and I think it's something that is very much in the underbelly of what's going on. So, I think it remains to be seen how things will go from there.

Justin Hendrix:

If there is a through line here, it is of course the general posture of American tech firms towards places that are not America, not perhaps even wealthy white America. We've talked about that issue on this podcast many different ways and many different times. But I'd love to ask both of you, as you observe what's happening in the struggle on the labor front and as you observe some of the things that you've just discussed there, Odanga, what are the other through lines? What are the lessons or rules of this universe? Nerima, perhaps I'll start with you.

Nerima Wako-Ojiwa:

It's worrying because you begin to... Not begin, there's a larger influence, a political influence, especially by big tech companies. That was a playbook that they've been utilizing in countries like ours, but to see that also firsthand in the U.S. is worrying. And that is a new frontier, especially when it comes to accountability, what does that mean when such huge industries, huge companies, are just way too close to power and influence? And so, sometimes you can feel deflated and what's the point of all this? But a lot of people are thinking through, what does organizing look like in terms of global organizing? Because there's been clearly this divide that has existed. But now we're seeing, we're actually on the same page now, because it's about profit, it's about market and not necessarily it's break everything first and we're realizing they're breaking everything everywhere. So, that's also something that people are organizing differently.

I think there are a number of meetings that are being held that are worker centered and being held here. That's already a shift where we are seeing. People realizing that we have go where they're experiencing a thinking market is, future market. Because even when we talk about how larger populations are, how young they are, they're seeing opportunity and of course they're coming into our countries very fast. And of course our administrations, our governments are welcoming them. Because a lot of young people need opportunity and they've been educated, they have skill, but then not the right opportunities or not opportunities that are fair and just what Odanga has described. We still have the challenges within these systems that portray us in a certain way. So, at the same time, I'm hopeful just because of the realization. I think when it comes to framing, it's the framing that AI is fantastic, it's great for us, we should all adapt quickly to it.

And then this invisibleness of who's behind AI, is a narrative that a lot of people are pushing now to bring to the front, that we need to know what's going behind the scenes, and it's gory. As much as we praise AI and how it supports us every single day, there are people who are barely making it to make sure that you're able to use your ChatGPTs and use your apps and that help you every day to be a better human, in the same process, it's completely destroying another human. I think those are the elements that people are grappling with and how to have a fair or even a compromise when it comes to some of these things.

Justin Hendrix:

So, I don't want to reduce what you're telling me too much, but in your comments, I'm hearing, courts are slow, politicians are, I don't want to say corrupted, but certainly not necessarily on the side of human interests, maybe more on the side of corporate interests in many cases. And that if there is going to be change, it will come from people, from worker organizing and from awareness among people as consumers, as users of these technologies who demand more. Odanga, are there other lessons that you see right now, as we enter this transitional phase to AI?

Odanga Madung:

I just want to double down on this question of, platforms positioning themselves as bringers of jobs, right? It very much ties into a white savior complex, especially when you look into how Sama actually positions itself, the story that they tell themselves, in terms of the kind of jobs that they provide to people and even how they defend themselves. It's that when people are given PTSD after watching child porn and not being allowed enough hours of sleep, they're told, but don't you want jobs? Look at the jobs we're giving you, you had nothing before. And the thing about what makes it dangerous is that, a lot of the stuff, the labor that the BPO sector is looking to extract, number one, very key word there, to extract from this market, is aligning itself with political ambition.

So, when our president, for example, goes ahead and decide and says that he wants to promise the youth, I don't know, millions of jobs per year. When he talks about that and specifically when he says digital jobs, he's talking about the very jobs that people like Nerima and the rest of the movement are actually fighting, not fighting against, but fighting to make at least more dignified. Those are the jobs that people are promising here, they're giving us, or at least positioning of the bottom of the food chain of AI is where Kenya actually belongs.

I have a problem with the kind of job that is being offered and the position in which it's being offered, because this is also a very aspirational country, we've got incredibly skilled people. And I think the most weird thing that you find is, when you talk to a moderator, and you speak to this person, you realize this person has a PhD, this person has a Master's, they're incredibly well-educated, incredibly well-spoken, but this is the only opportunity landscape that a lot of our politicians are willing to offer them. And I think Nerima has actually a very strong understanding, and maybe I can hand it back to her, of just the political problem that this presents. Because, I think to me, that's also a big part of it, that this is the imagination our leaders have for us.

And you see it in other spaces, right? It's not just in the BPO sector. There's a long thread of which this is manifesting itself in the BPO sector strongest, I think, and this is perhaps the most exportable story about it. But the second part about this, and I feel like we really need to pay attention to, is that I don't think many people realize this, but in William Ruto's first Independence Day, say, in Kenya we have Jamhuri Day here. William Ruto's first Independence Day celebrations, the person who spoke immediately before him, I need to fact check myself on this or maybe we can fact check, I'll send you the link, but the person who spoke, I think either immediately before him or a few people before him was Nick Clegg, right?

So, that has actually never happened. Americans would never let Mark Zuckerberg come and speak on July the 4th celebration to address the nation. That would never happen. So how is it that we are finding that Facebook is coming to address the nation on its I think 61st or 62nd, what's it called, Independence Day celebration? I was like, as who? I remember watching that on TV and just frothing at the mouth and being like, what exactly is going on here?

So, there's a big case study of corporate alignment with government or the corporate interest alignment with government, with government interests as well, that is happening in Kenya, specifically with regards to how tech giants are navigating the controversies around the BPO sector. That we will need to learn a lot about in future when it comes to other forms of accountability, especially other forms of corporate accountability, even on things like fertilizer, even on things like gas and oil. Because I do think that the gold standard of how that is occurring, is happening in Kenya.

Justin Hendrix:

Nerima, Odanga left it open for you to respond there if you'd like.

Nerima Wako-Ojiwa:

No, I think Odanga, he responded very well. And I was smiling a bit because I was like, who would've thought you'd see Elon Musk in the Oval Office? It's the same thing. Things that we've been seeing here, is now happening in the states. Him as a South African citizen, dual, but still how, non-elected. So, you're just seeing how lines in terms of authority are completely blurred and you see the kind of influence that they have, especially when you see president of South Africa talking about what the heck was that, when he went to visit Trump. This is just the beginning and I believe that people are beginning to realize how it can have an impact on decisions on law, on our lives, and it's not just about the economy. I think people are worried about that.

Justin Hendrix:

I'll press you both maybe just a moment on that, before we move to Kenya and your politics there. But Nerima, you wrote with Liz Orembo for us about Meta's reorientation politically, and its changes to its content moderation practices, what that might portend for Africa. Can I press you both just a little bit more on what is the impact of the circumstances in the US on the issues that you care about there?

Nerima Wako-Ojiwa:

In our article, the biggest thing was linking just social media can actually lead to conflicts, and we've seen it happen in countries in our region, as early or 10 years ago. So, this is not something that is just in lalaland, and we're assuming this is something that we have evidence, proof, and it has actually happened before. And one of our main fears is the fact that a lot of disinformation comes from government agencies, especially now when they're utilizing artificial intelligence. Our foreign affairs ministry has done that twice. And people come in, actual individuals saying this is AI generated and stopping them from sharing some of this information. So, it is a concern, because even when language is changing so fast and dynamically and you need to teach these systems, and so you need people to do that. And when you're talking about a very young population, their language changes so fast and one thing can mean something else in just a matter of months, and this is a worry.

So, it's not something that can just be put into a machine and systematized, just because we are constantly changing and based on language and based on what's context, it's more complicated than that. And it's also worrying when politicians have the largest followings. For us, our politicians are our celebrities. So, we wouldn't be following Grammys and things like that, we're following what a particular politician did on a particular day, where they went. Those are the people we watch and so they have followers that are in the millions, and I've actually come across some handles that are managed by people in their twenties. And if it's just something that they felt to say, an insult can actually lead to a whole debacle online.

And so, classic with what's happening right now within the region, Kenya, Tanzania, Kenyans insulting Tanzania, because of activists being tortured and abducted in Tanzania and putting up numbers and insulting members of parliament, who would've thought. But now we're hearing signs that Tanzania has turned off X and looking at WhatsApp. So, it's a clear example of how, when it comes to internet shutdowns, when it comes to not being able to not just monitor, but someone being held accountable for disinformation, misinformation on our platforms, it means something completely different in our regions and it's something that we cannot just push away and decide, let's do away with it because we don't want to deal with people because they're complex and they're expensive. It's not that simple.

Justin Hendrix:

Odanga, you could either pick up on the question around, the change in circumstances in the U.S. and its effect, or we could potentially move on to some of the things you've been writing about recently, for instance in the continent, just saw that piece that you posted. Up to you, which way you'd like to go?

Odanga Madung:

So, maybe the first thing is, the most impactful aspect around the changes, the changes of context in the US, of course, is the reduction in implementation of trust and safety guidance and guardrails within social media ecosystems. Now this, as I mentioned, is likely to end up having a very significant effect in terms of how our politicians think about regulating AI, or rather regulating AI and regulating social media platforms, because there will be very many legitimate grievances that will occur that they could decide to weaponize in order to use it to try and stifle free speech. Case in point, whatever is happening in Kenya right now, we have a very strong effort coming in from the ruling party towards trying to regulate social media through something called the Kenya information, I think communication amendment bill or something 2025 or something like that.

And when you look at the talking points that politicians who've been sent to the public to talk about this bill, what they're saying is quite simply, we are trying to protect our citizens from porn, we're trying to protect our children from exposure to sexual material and also of course, on top of the fact that they think that Kenyans have bad manners and Kenyans need to stop insulting their leaders, right? The truth is, when you look at some of the framing of what they're talking about, especially in and around the exposure of explicit material, platforms are failing on this.

X has been noted to have failed widely in terms of nudity exposure and I know Apple is even still having a very serious, I don't know, Justin maybe if you can speak to that, because I'm curious how Apple is handling the situation with X and explicit material. Because this is something that's clearly against their terms of service and it's something that I know they failed to deal with. Some of these failures in trust and safety are being recognized, to curtail freedoms in our side of the world. Now that's something that I think is something that people are failing to understand, and I wonder what's going to happen in that specific respect.

Justin Hendrix:

I think it's a really interesting point. We've scratched that in some other conversations on this podcast in the past. And I think, sometimes that point is maybe somewhat lost on people who look at the situation from abroad and see a government action and only see authoritarian interests in the government when they engage in various sensorial activities or shutdowns, et cetera. They don't see that part you're talking about, which is that the platforms, to some extent, given them a ready justification for some of their actions, through failures to contain various harms. Nerima, when you were describing some of the unrest, and we've seen of course protest movements, we've seen lots of polarizing and or divisive artifacts on social media, that have led to real world harms. Of course, governments on some level would like to get their hands around that, but that gives them the excuse to then go and of course punish people for speech when it's not in their interests.

Nerima Wako-Ojiwa:

Absolutely. And also what we are seeing is, countries actually encouraging each other, that freedom of expression should be limited. And for us, saying Kenyans who do that are mannerless and making people appear to be villains. And so, it is a concern, and we also haven't talked about how state uses propaganda. There's such a rise in terms of their machinery. They've completely changed how they communicate with the public because, they understand how important it is to own the digital sphere. So, even when it comes to media, it's so important for them to be able to have bots and bloggers that are under their payroll, to make sure that people who are expressing themselves and trying to share information that's factual and true and make sure that those voices are drowned out.

Another technique that we've seen them utilize is, sometimes you can't really refresh your handles to see what people are talking about, and it's specific handles that happens to, where we now end up being in groups and asking each other, is something going on? Has it slowed down? Are you able to see? And these are some of the techniques that are quite insidious, so it doesn't look like it's a shutdown, it's a slowdown, but now it's only for specific individuals, where they don't have access. Or even for me sometimes, I can't even join some X Spaces. I'm kicked out almost immediately, I can't hear, I can't unmute my mic. So, you're seeing that it's the perception that it's accessible, but then they have made it very difficult to access, almost as though you feel that you are going through this on your own. It's a very interesting way of appearing to have freedoms, but they're actually limiting your access.

Justin Hendrix:

Odanga, you pointed to, in your piece recently for the continent, to this kind of arms race that appears to be developing between those who are in the civic tech movement, those who are trying to empower protest movements, to be heard, pursue concerns like human rights or other types of democratic interests, and of course the surveillance state, the government interests that use shut downs, use censorship, use various other mechanisms. Can you describe that phenomenon? What you're seeing emerge right now, how that relates to the Gen Z movement there?

Odanga Madung:

Yeah. So, actually I have a new piece out that's for The Continent, and I'm actually currently working on another one. The baseline that I'd want to start off is with this, there's a certain way politics has been done. I think now it's very clear across the region here, that is coming to a very strong clash with the way a lot of younger people, and not even say younger people, a lot of citizens, because 90% of our countries are young anyway. So, these are just citizens. And with the way citizens want politics to be done. And one way in which a lot of citizens have decided to try and figure out how to enact that change, is by the use of a lot of social media platforms. I think I find it interesting for me, because I spent quite a bit of time covering how social media platforms were essentially the bane of existence. And now, I found myself on this other side, fighting too and for them to be defended, is quite interesting because it's a complete flip.

But when you see these kinds of efforts coming in from Tanzania, from Uganda... Uganda, in fact I've always said, is the canary in the coal mine in terms of what the state cracking down on social media expression, not platforms. I think we need to separate this, on expression to the internet is because they banned Facebook back in 2020. They tried to implement social media taxes as a way of reducing usage, and that's why people call Uganda the VPN capital of the world, because they've already done, been through this, and now it's just the rest of us catching up. And we can now see it in Tanzania where several times, especially recently, given the events of the abductions that happened in Tanzania, the platform, the country has tried to create a fire all around itself by banning X and looking into banning WhatsApp. And it's not the first time that they've also carried out different forms of shutdowns across that.

In reality, what these are, are simply knee-jerk reactions from governments that are averse to being held accountable by their citizens. And they've looked and they've realized that their prevailing means of manufacturing consent that they previously had, where they could easily capture the media and be able to very easily tell people what they think, those avenues are gone. And that's when they end up up trying to invest even in things like, what Nerima was talking about, bloggers, bot accounts and very much investing in disinformation campaigns, because to them, this is about survival. And so, they do understand that they need to be able to control narratives in order to be able to control people. But trying to do that in a decentralized ecosystem such as the internet, is not something that is easy to them.

So then, what options are you left with? Number one, abductions. I think, even before we get even to the level where we talk about irregulation of the internet, the first thing that I think I need to point out is, the usage of state force, of the monopoly violence that the state has, against people who use the internet to try and call out the state. I interviewed this gentleman called Billy Mwangi about his... Billy Mwangi and a whole bunch of other guys who were abducted in December, about their experiences under the state. But the truth is, what they were really abducted for was because they made AI generated images of the President. And the state took offense because of the kind of satire that they kicked off a viral trend that a lot of people ended up participating in. And one of the ways in which the state would try to control this narrative is by just getting a hold of the people who are custodians of that narrative and trying to see how to shut them down.

When that doesn't work, now is when they realize we need a much more widespread way of dealing with this issue. And that's where now we're looking at a very strong and concerted push, especially in Kenya towards seeing how to regulate the internet. And I'm just really hoping that there's a very strong push back from Kenyans against this, because this is what it really is about. This is not about porn, this is not about protecting children, this is not about making data bundles cheaper, no. This is about stifling freedom of expression, and it is also about maintaining the status quo of how politics is done. And that's why I think we need to really pay attention to the stories that are going on in Tanzania, specifically Tanzania and Kenya, in terms of the push that they're doing to try and regulate the platforms.

Justin Hendrix:

Nerima, anything you'd want to add there on any of these topics, but particularly what you've been observing there in Kenya?

Nerima Wako-Ojiwa:

The only thing I would add is, there've been a lot of evidenced information in regards to surveillance. And also the fact that even now with the most recent case, that it's now cross-country, I think that sort of partnership is concerning. And the fact that authorities have now decided to work together, as Odanga is talking about, abductions and fear and intimidation. And Kenya having a history of being a safe haven, and it's not a safe haven anymore. And so, we're seeing a lot of activists can't even stay within the East Africa region. And now, thinking about going south, that's also something that's worrying, that they're ganging up and working together.

Odanga Madung:

Justin, you've heard about Anne Applebaum's Autocracy, Inc. The idea that, now these dictators hold each other together, hold each other up together, right? I think it's very important to take what Nerima said very seriously, because if it is, I think it's only a matter of time before some investigative consortium happens across an, let's call it maybe a shared African surveillance ecosystem, that is able to actually track and capture dissidents. Because there has been a lot of, especially cross-border abduction of dissidents that has been happening in the region. And a lots of people are just in general afraid of, again, as Nerima said, you can't even think about... The border is now gone, truly gone. In terms of the state of the atmosphere here, and one of the things a lot of people are very suspicious about is, whether there is shared surveillance ecosystems as part of the infrastructure of shared oppression.

Justin Hendrix:

I want to take a step back to end this in maybe a slightly different place. We've talked about a range of complicated, difficult, in some cases, extremely concerning phenomena. But Odanga, you used the word imagination earlier, Nerima, you talked about the future. You've both talked about the extent to which, on some level, the future's being defined in this sort of reflexive conversation between tech, politics, and power. I want to ask you both about your visions for the future. Where you think listeners could look for perhaps a more optimistic or a different view of the future, maybe even a Kenyan or an African version of the future, that you might hold in your mind, something that's different than what's on sale from Silicon Valley, perhaps than what's on sale from governments there presently. How do you think about the future? What is it you feel, your work, your activism, your journalism, you're striving to, if you succeed in your wildest dreams, what do things look like?

Nerima Wako-Ojiwa:

I think, for me, worker-centered, worker-centered. And just simply because, they're the ones who have done this work and understand it, and industries and businesses, being able to listen to them. And because this is the future of work, we're going to all end up having technology in our industries and sectors. So, it's just accepting that and understanding that early and soon enough, without it now being a damage to mankind and finding out later, especially the mental aspect of things. I think it's a very new area, and I think that the Africa Tech Workers movement is very inspiring to me. It's one of the first of its kind, the fact that they're already thinking regionally and we're already talking about a large population that's majorly young. And we also understand that, markets in terms of even innovation, even coming from here as well. So, if that is done right, then I would say that we have a hopeful future, if it's worker and human-centered.

Odanga Madung:

I'm a professional pessimist and cynic, so it's very hard to... I'm a hater, like a proper professional hater. Nerima knows. It's very hard for me to try and imagine that new future. But I will tell you what I think, the reason I'm doing the work that I'm doing right now is, I think the work... How would I call it? The status quo and the current political ecosystem is always going to try and crush the dreams and hopes of a lot of people, and to some extent, tech tools are being used to do that. So, for me right now, what I am writing about is, what I am hopeful about and definitely I know is going to deliver a better future, is how the work, the fightback that Kenyans are using to push on to try and fight...

What I'm hopeful about is the movements that Kenyans, in particular, are forming to try and fight for their future. I think that's actually the story that I've been focusing on for the past year. And chronicling, I covered the content moderator stuff for years and chronicling the work that guys like Nerima are doing, chronicling the work, the pushback that a lot of Kenyans are having through the usage of the internet. Very soon, I think, as it dawns on a lot of people what the government is trying to do, again, the pushback against bills like the current internet regulation attempt that is going on. I think what we're doing is, forming a blueprint that a lot of people will be able to look back on or look to and try to understand how exactly they are able to achieve change. And so, I think that's a very important aspect that I think should not get lost in this whole thing. Yeah.

Justin Hendrix:

I appreciate both your responses to that. Perhaps a bit clumsy question, but grateful for your insights and answers, and hope to come back to you on these matters in the near term and find out how things are going with your various efforts. Nerima, Odanga, thank you so much.

Nerima Wako-Ojiwa:

Thanks, Justin.

Odanga Madung:

Yeah, Thanks for having me, Justin.